Hi, I am running beta 12d on a mark II and when I change the "info" setting to "line", and turn the ignition off for a while and then turn it back on again, the "info" setting has reverted back to what it was before, "track". I can't seem to figure out how to change the setting to "line" and make it stick. Other settings, like the equalizer, seem to stick ok.

I reported this issue in email and got the following response:

This is a feature. In order to protect us from potential legal action the
player always sets itself to a non-graphical visual when started in the
car.

However, on a Mark II player the unit does not switch itself fully off
immediately when the ignition is turned off. I think it stays on for around
a minute. The actual time is customisable from within emplode. If you
extend this time then the unit will remember the visual/info setting for
that time when the ignition is turned off.

I don't get understand why there would be legal action. But if so, then I would request some way to turn off this "feature" in a future release, since I probably won't be using the fancy visuals much if I have to select them every time I get in the car.

There was a big long argument here on the BBS about this feature when it first appeared. There's no need to re-hash the pros and cons here because we've already been through that and we're all still stinging from it.

In any case, empeg gave us a fantastic compromise:

When the unit is on the info:track screen, holding down the bottom button (on the faceplate) will switch back to the visuals screen. That way, if you like the visuals in your car, you can bring them back with a single button-press.

This is the perfect compromise because it gives empeg what they need (the user must consciously choose to activate the visuals in the car), while giving us what we want (the simplest possible way to get to the visuals).

There happens to be a bug right now where that single button-press-hold doesn't always work the first time. But if it doesn't work the first time, then it'll work the second time. And they'll have that bug fixed soon.

___________
Tony Fabris

Ok, this is rediculous. I didn't pay $1300 to be an early adopter and have to hold down a button on my stereo each time I start my car. At least make an undocumented addition to the empeg player config file that the hackers can add in to make it remember the state of the display.

At the very least, this information should be plainly visible on the website before purchasing the unit.

Sorry I missed the original discussion. Tony, do you have a link to the thread?

-Hoagy.

Sorry I missed the original discussion. Tony, do you have a link to the thread?

Sure, there were several threads on the subject. Here's one of them. And while we're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

___________
Tony Fabris

This has to be a joke.. to rephrase that slightly, "I didn't pay $1300 to have to press a button to access a feature".

There are features in the player a million times more important than visuals (which exist purely so you can show off to your friends) which require several button presses. My god, I can't believe we forgot to include the thought controlled interface!

If we told you the playlists were hierarchical because of legal reasons, I'm certain we'd get a whole bunch of people screaming for us to make them flat.

Rob

PS Tony - sorrrrry I really don't want to start a thread all over again, but you know how it is.

PPS Early uptake was last year, this is full production!

Geoff's post has to be the best one of them all.

Ok, I count 7 button presses to get the visual back and change the Info to the "Line" setting. Windows 98 aside, I personally believe that technology should make our lives easier and less mundane.

Now if there was a way to make the Info "Line" setting stick and only one button press to bring the visual back, then I can accept that since other electronics are similarly designed. But otherwise, this is definitely a bug that needs fixing.

And I DO consider myself to be an early adopter since there are probably around 10 of them in the San Francisco Bay area and in a year, some major manufacturer is bound to offer the same thing for a fraction of the cost. It's the price we pay to have it here now.

To Empeg's credit, they don't flaunt the visuals much on their web site. Obviously this isn't the Mark II's most important feature, but it's definitely one of the sexiest.

And hierarchical playlists are a terrific feature! Winamp should have implemented them a long time ago. Forgetting the unit's visual state on power off is not a terrific feature. What if I'm robbing a bank and when starting up the getaway car I have to hit seven buttons?! I NEED to see the tripping prisoner visual while listening to Spybreak!

Ah well, when someone leaks the code we can all change it ourselves.

Death to lawyers.
-Hoagy.

> Ok, I count 7 button presses to get the visual back and change the Info to
> the "Line" setting.

The Line issue is a different matter - restoring that setting isn't a problem legally or technically, we just didn't think of it. No doubt it will make the wishlist now.

> there are probably around 10 of them in the San Francisco Bay area

Hmm, a lot more than that I think - a huge percentage of players go to California, mainly to SF, San Jose and San Diego. I'd guess that we have more players in Southern California than we do in the UK.

> some major manufacturer is bound to offer the same thing for a fraction of
> the cost

Not the same thing - we've learned a thing or two about consumerising a product, and the car player would have to lose a LOT of bells and whistles before it could enter the mass market with an appropriate price tag.

Our take on this particular product isn't to reduce the price, but to increase the specification - whether that's new software, bigger disks or major revisions. Different products will pick up the low cost end of the market, and hopefully we'll have designed many of them!

Rob

That would be $1300 per button push. Ahaha. That one gave me a good laugh too.

Calvin

I'll admit that I'd prefer to not have to push a button to get the visuals on and I don't even have a player yet. However, the first thing I do when I get in the car with my Pioneer unit is adjust the volume to an acceptable level, depending on whether the windows are up or down, I've got someone else in the car or not, or I forget what level I left it at. The other thing I do right now is decide which disc I'm going to listen to. Being that my hands are already on the player, I don't see a problem with having to press one other button. Besides, I probably won't be choosing what disc I want to play anymore... I'll just have it constantly shuffling the entire player or a particular playlist. So, I no longer have to do one thing and instead I'll need to push a button when it boots up. I can live with that.

If there wasn't a legal ramification for not having done it this way, they wouldn't have done it. No one likes it like this and Empeg isn't the type to do something that the majority doesn't like. Historically, from what I've read, this is really the only thing they've done against what the majority wanted. That's a pretty darn good track record.

Hey... why not write to Pioneer, Alpine, or Sony and tell them that you want your head unit to do something in particular. Let us know how far you get. Tell them you want disc #3 to play every time you turn on the head unit because that's the one you told your girlfriend she could change. Not gonna work, is it? You're going to just have to press #3 every time you turn on the player, aren't you? You can't always have everything you want. I spent $1200 on my current Pioneer head unit 7 years ago and it forgets the names of the CD's every time I disconnect the battery. Do I like that? No. Can I fix that? Again, no. Maybe I could rig something up to add a battery backup, but I'm not that electrically inclined and it's not worth my time. If you really want to change this setting, figure out how to hack into the code and change it. We'd all appreciate that.

If the guys@empeg took the visuals out completely there wouldn't be an issue anymore, would there? I certainly don't want to see that happen, do you? I'm sorry to be so sarcastic, but this issue has been beaten to death in the past and it hasn't changed... for a reason. There's really no sense in asking Empeg to change this when they've already said they can't, for legal reasons. Yeah, maybe one day someone will find a way to bypass this, but until then, we can't do anything. I don't want Empeg going out of business due to some moron's lawsuit. I want more software updates and more features and they certainly can't do that if they're busy stating their cases in court.

Let it rest, people. Please?

George

Seeing as there are only 4 people who currently have the code, I suspect a leak is unlikely - if the code was leaked, we'd be rather more worried about large companies using it than people fixing bugs.

If it's a bug, and the behaviour you want is logical (which it sounds like it is: full-screen info switching to visuals+1-line-info) then it'll get fixed.

Hugo

"Early Adopter" Eh? You are joking, right?

So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I'm assuming that your OEM partners have access to the code. This is where a leak would occur. So Empeg puts something of value to Kenwood (or whatever manufacturer) in escrow just in case the code gets leaked.

But I'm sure that someone who has the time to press the buttons every time they start their car will find a way to disable that "feature".

The Empeg guys have done a terrific job. So we'll agree to disagree about this issue. I appologize for bringing it up since it apparently has been done to death. I was just surprised to find such a limitation placed on purpose.

-Hoagy.

Perhaps Early Innovators? Or just circus geeks. I'm sorry that I was 586 registration numbers away from receiving a MkI. (But not really because the MkII is SO much better than your MkI) You're right; you're the elite of the 3L33T. Who am I to watch this BBS for 1.5 years for a sign of shipment?

While your typical geek probably enjoys pretending his car is a spaceship and flipping 50 buttons before he BLASTS OFF to his 10 minute commute to work, you'll find that most consumers just want their stuff to work without hassle.

-Hoagy.

Holy bitterness Batman!

Leave all the nice people alone. Everyone was happy for the last year and a half (anxiously happy perhaps ).

No offense intended, but you aren't familiar in these parts where many people have poured in their heart and soul into helping the empeg grow. You can't just jump in here and presume to tell everyone how it has to be done. Go back and read 8000 posts before bashing the long time contributors of this community.

Might have to sick PaulH on your wagon!

Kureg

Edited by Kureg on 15/8/00 07:18 PM.

Miracle Max - The Princess Bride

Yup. Great movie, great scene, great line. Billy and Carol were great in that scene.

Another one that gets great mileage around software development houses: "Don't rush a miracle, kid. You get rotten miracles."

___________
Tony Fabris

I have to strongly agree to that the visuals are one of the least important features! Why have you even put in these embarrassingly visual features in this great product?
As an MK1 owner I remember that till today the radio is not working to todays car radios standards but there have been added unnecessary visuals from release to release.

Please do not pay attention to the visuals and concentrate on important features like voice recognition, a functioning radio unit or a good synchronisation software where I can set the the playing order of the titles.

best regards,
Christian

Visuals are there because people like to show off; most people don't use them every day.

The visuals evolved at a separate pace from the rest of the software as they were not written in-house - so it's not as if we delayed any other features because we were writing visuals.

You can set playing order of the titles easily - click on the playlist order column (in detail view) and then drag items up & down the list to set the order. I belive this is mentioned in the manual.

Hugo

The code that goes to OEM partners is not the car player code - no OEMs have licenced this as yet. Code for other player variants has been licenced, but this can't be compiled up for the car player as many parts are missing.

If an OEM leaks the code (intentionally or otherwise) they're likely to get sued. Our code is our main asset as a company, and we will protect it (we'd be stupid not to!)

Hugo

Who am I to watch this BBS for 1.5 years for a sign of shipment

No idea (since you haven't filled out your profile in much detail). Why are you so angry about this? If it comes down to waiting times, then I registered as number 29, and have been on this scene considerably longer than you have.

I'm also not so sure that you need to go into the "better than" comparisons, or the "geek" labelling so rapidly, either. This BBS is all about information and discussion, not hot-to-trot expositions and enraged declarations.

I bought my Mk1 for fun, and I intend to use it that way over a long period of time. I will not be buying a Mk 2 since I cannot afford another, and I am perfectly content with what my Mk 1 delivers now - horses for courses. That doesn't stop me from remaining interested in the new machine, or trying to come up with suggestions that just might be interesting enough for the crew at empeg to think are worth putting into the software in the future. Thanks to my friend Henno, I can - occasionaly, if I'm a good boy - get to touch and even play with his first-of-forty, Mark. Still can't afford one, though.

Being part of a community implies a certain responsibility - you don't piss on the communal flowers, for example - and for that, you are rewarded with the respect of your neighbours. Too much to ask? Or are you going to be angry about this gentle response and flame me for a second time?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled?

Old fogeys I think.....

(O|||||O)

So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled?

"newbie"

Just look to the left.

Proud early adopter of a Mk.I and a first-forty Mk.II, reg #1240, registered on the board on 27 Sep 99.

"You can always tell the Pioneers, they're the ones with arrows in their backs."

-Zandr
Mk.I #150
Mk.II #39

> Why have you even put in these embarrassingly visual features

I don't think they're embarrassing, I think they're fantastic visuals.

Gross generalisation coming up: If you're going to spend $1200+ on a car stereo, you definitely want to impress your friends - and visuals are the second best way to do that!*

I'm pleased to say that no empeg programmer time has been diverted to the visuals (we contracted out the work) and that no animals were harmed during their creation.

Rob

* first best is to say "Oh, yeah, I've got 800 hours of music in this thing"

> Seeing as there are only 4 people who currently have the code

Hey, you mean I've not got privs on the source server? I'm deeply offended!

(I wonder how much Clarion would cough up for that caching algorithm...)

Rob

(I wonder how much Clarion would cough up for that caching algorithm...)

Well, now that the skipping bugs have been ironed out of it, I'd imagine quite a bit.

(FYI: Since that fix was implemented just before 1.0, I haven't had a single skip or dropout in any track. Just wanted to give a long-term report on it.)

___________
Tony Fabris

..and I seem to recall that it was a Linux bug anyway :-)

Rob

I've got some salt, sugar and some fire ants, if it doesn't hurt enough yet.

Awesome movie! "Have fun storming the castle!"

George

It just happens that I ordered that movie on DVD last week. Its great to just pop it in when not much is going on.

There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage yours.

-Finally received my Mark2 no thanks to customs.